TF2SwapShop.com
General => Discussions => Old Discussions => Topic started by: Fractal3 on February 01, 2016, 02:32:44 PM
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POLL: It would be beneficial to the group to know which condition is not acceptable and why, if you choose to elaborate why you voted no.
I have had a few people ask me to come back as an Admin. I always had two conditions, one to join "if" Hades was not a staff member and two if Death showed interest in what I had to say on that matter and showed some faith and objectivity regarding my advice on these matters.
Now hearing that Hades is gone, I have been giving it more thought.
Before spending any efforts re-applying, I need to publicly evaluate if it is worth my time doing so.
For those who know me will understand why I am posting this. Comments similar to "Pixels acted like a twelve year old not getting what they want" are not conducive to me re-applying.
The following conditions must be met prior to my re-applying:
1: Statements by Death "pixels could no longer post his hate and slander about us" should be corrected in my "gone"http://tf2swapshop.com/forum/index.php?topic=246 (http://tf2swapshop.com/forum/index.php?topic=246)thread. No such activity occurred and that type of statement is unjustified.
2: Trust is Paramount. I can rely that I can be trusted. I do not associate with those who question trust without adequate reasoning or justification. Ignorance is just cause not to trust, but not enough to question without openness to learn the details first.
3: Blacklist will be created for those who will not be promoted and association with blacklisted members will substantiate demotion.
4: Answers as to who made the final decision to fastrack Hades as an admin despite my expressed displeasure, who banned me from the forums and who banned me from the servers must be answered with a explanation as to why, even if done privately.
5: Death makes a honest effort in being active in forum changes. The leader of this community should be Death. He must be willing to being a voice in the community and willing / capable to advocate for it's members in a just manner.
6: Death must endorse my re-joining the community regardless of vote count.
I have no idea what the thoughts are on this topic. Some of you may see this coming across as "arrogant" having a member tally conditions for becoming a staff member of this community. Just look at it like you are buying a Car, something you will work to pay for is spending your time working towards, you must ensure that you are not wasting your time on a lemon that keeps breaking down on you, you can't find parts for without paying alot of money for or is serviced by a dealer who routinely rips you off. It is always a good idea evaluating if it is worth your time doing something before doing it and if it can be beneficial and well received by others.
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Since Pixels has been gone, many changes have been made to the servers, website, and Staff list since. Of course, if he does come back, we would surely have more help, which is useful.
I have never spoken with or associated myself with Pixels before, so I don't know much about his personality since I only have text in previous conversations as reference.
My judgement at this moment is that I don't mind if he rejoins the community or not.
We'll see where it goes from here, I'm here with open arms.
Blood
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Im pretty new to the whole admin thing and dont really know what happen between you two that made you want to leave but the past is the past so im alright with allowing you back. I hope that if you do get to comeback that it will make a diffrence for everyone let it be staff, players etc.
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edited (no delete option for post)
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I don't have any issues with you returning to our community.
However I see issues with the following condition:
3: Blacklist will be created for those who will not be promoted and association with blacklisted members will substantiate demotion.
I know there are many admins here, myself included that remain friends with Hades despite his departure.
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I am going to vote no.
It's too soon. I had a whole thing I was going to write, but it is unnecessary and it might lead to unnecessary conflict that I don't feel like starting. I respect you. If you returned, I know you would do more good than harm. I just believe it is too soon. If you wait a bit and apply, I would be all for it.
~16
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Also, forum wise, I would not be surprised if once again I am back. Man I hate the feeling of having written the "Goodbye all" and then moments later be like "I'm back". But whatever. I am still perma-banned due to my own request, and that has worked out, so I think I'm gonna keep it like that. The odds of me trying to remove that later in time is very likely because of the devil on my shoulder telling me what to do, but until then, I am going to be forum bound and hopefully I will stay away from trying to become admin.
~16
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Man I hate the feeling of having written the "Goodbye all" and then moments later be like "I'm back".
~16
For me, It's been almost like a year (8 months). That isn't a moment for me.
Not sure what your issues were. There were many more before you who lacked certain attributes to remain an Admin, by choice or choice by someone else. All we can do is our best helping one another and remaining objective. I have found it difficult to communicate with you in the past, so I am not sure what your issues are / were. I hope you feel good about your choices, as they are not always easy. It all comes down to principals, and how many you are willing to bend.
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Well, given the point of this post, I have made my choice. I do not think now is the time for you to return as administrator.
~16
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Even though I have had very little interaction with Pixels, I feel that he should get another shot. I have taken into account the things I have heard from other admins and most of the stories are the same but, with all that considered, I am happy to see you making an effort in coming back to the servers and possibly, a staff position.
~17
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Everyone had ample opportunity to participate.
Remember, I was not demoted, I left the community for principals which I value. What happened after I left, only cemented my decision that my input and energy was not valued by everyone.
I will remain open if Death changes his mind by taking steps to make appropriate corrections / actions. My participation in managing this community has conditions which must be met; as such currently do not permit my energy spent on this community as a staff member.
Thanks for everyone's time, this post can be closed.
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I will never endorse the creation of a blacklist that's sole existence is a reason to remove current staff that are friends with individuals previously removed.
That's like saying you will be fired from a job for being friends with someone who no longer works there...
Am I the only one who sees issue with this?
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No, I thought it was unfair as well. It's like saying who can and can't be friends with. When it's really your choice, and not theirs.
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Well, there is one example where who you are friends with is required, and that is that every admin should be friends with every other admin. Otherwise, if it is just some random player, you can choose whether or not you want to friend them.
~16
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"If somebody is gracious enough to give me a second chance, I won't need a third."
~Pete Rose
I have no idea what happened prior to me being here, but I always believe in second chances. If everyone can agree to get along then why not?
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I say that Pixels can come back, if he drops the self-entitled attitude. I mean, just reading his last post just screams it. Why exactly would we need a blacklist? Sure, Pixels and Hades had a thing for each other but that doesn't mean everyone else needs to suffer because those two had some
odd sexual tension hate for each other over the internet. Anyway, that's my opinion on 3.
As for #4, I don't think Pixels has the right to do so. You can't force someone to let you know they voted for Hades to be an admin just so you could probably vent some anger at them. This stems from what I heard about the forums and our server group getting trashed.
For 5, do forum changes really matter? Not many users even visit the forums as much as they do with our servers.
And 6 is entirely up to Death. He doesn't need to endorse Pixel re-joining our community. That sounds like getting paid and none of us nothing more than keeping our servers friendly and free of hackers, scammers, etc.
That's my point on that. It sounds like the whole Ken Penders lawsuit against Archie, except we don't actually have to let Pixels back in. But as I said, if he drops the attitude he can come back, but he'll start like most of us as a regular server admin.
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Yeah wait what?
I never actually read the post, I just saw the title and the responses.
If you would like to continue the buying a car analogy, I will. At SS, any player is allowed to buy a car (aka make an app to become an admin). If you are accepted, you will get that car, if you are denied, you can spend your time walking for the next 6 months or more. But every person who applies and is accepted receives the same make, model, color, size, etc. car.
But you are walking back over here and expect to not only get a car, but also get a spoiler and updated bumpers and seat warmers and dice that hang from the mirror and you want to get this car in red. You are asking for too much. Either apply and get the average car that works and deal with everything that comes with it, or don't and continue to walk like everyone else.
~16
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Well said.
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Yeah wait what?
I never actually read the post, I just saw the title and the responses.
If you would like to continue the buying a car analogy, I will. At SS, any player is allowed to buy a car (aka make an app to become an admin). If you are accepted, you will get that car, if you are denied, you can spend your time walking for the next 6 months or more. But every person who applies and is accepted receives the same make, model, color, size, etc. car.
But you are walking back over here and expect to not only get a car, but also get a spoiler and updated bumpers and seat warmers and dice that hang from the mirror and you want to get this car in red. You are asking for too much. Either apply and get the average car that works and deal with everything that comes with it, or don't and continue to walk like everyone else.
~16
Quite the intellectual response, Sixteen.
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I say that Pixels can come back, if he drops the self-entitled attitude. I mean, just reading his last post just screams it. Why exactly would we need a blacklist? Sure, Pixels and Hades had a thing for each other but that doesn't mean everyone else needs to suffer because those two had some odd sexual tension hate for each other over the internet. Anyway, that's my opinion on 3.
Seems I can no longer ignore this topic.
Number three wouldn't affect just me you know. Sixteen would be affected too. Sixteen, Myself and any other person that can't apply again would be affected. (Magic genie is another). I won't toot my own horn so to speak and say that it is only targeted for me. It maybe or it may not. Lethal's post is damn good at summarizing his post. Pixels always had that kind of an attitude. Some saw it where others did not. Anyways thought I would point it out. Also should point out that an extremely few of you ignored most of his points/ didn't read his post and just commented. As the old saying goes: "Don't judge a book by its cover".
Pixels I understand better than anyone except death how much you built this community. We both committed massive amounts of time and effort into SwapShop. We both helped it transform into what it is now. However, just as a parent watches their kids grow up and must eventually lets go of them, so must we. We must let go and watch SS grow from afar. We have done our part. Let the others do theirs.
Hades
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It is amazing. People have a marvelous way of painting an idea and spinning off of it to make something bigger and worse. Death knows why I made my points, and decides to paint it differently. I don't believe my describing my reasons will make any difference when the leader chooses to turn a blind eye to the truth in the matter. I have been clear in my private messages to him, as to why he cannot see the light in my suggestion is beyond me, and decide to grandstand on the one topic.. I guess I really am not worth his time. I am sure there are a couple of you who really know the truth, but don't bother shedding light on this as it will only threaten how people perceive you.
All in all, Hats off Hades, and Death made his choice clear to protect your association.
Good luck with things, I am sure you will do just fine without me.
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I now know why Hades compared me to you dude. You are also super dramatic. You talk about how there are all these problems and none of us see them. Might I say I have heard your story 2-3 times, but others haven't. If you don't want to explain it to them, that's fine. It's your story to tell, not mine, plus at this point I don't even care any more.
"I don't believe my describing my reasons will make any difference when the leader chooses to turn a blind eye to the truth in the matter." Frankly, reading the responses from above, it looks like no one was in favor of your system. Blame the leader if you want, but it's a democracy my friend.
"I have been clear in my private messages to him, as to why he cannot see the light in my suggestion is beyond me, and decide to grandstand on the one topic." Is this supposed to be inspirational? Because how can you be clear about it if only one person has seen it, hence it being a private message.
"I guess I really am not worth his time." You made this too hard for yourself. All you had to do was ask: Do I want to come back? Do you guys want me to come back? If the answer was yes for both of those, then BOOM you could come back. The title of this post is what you should have kept with. Flat out: Pixels303 back?.
And your last statement. I'm not worried how people will perceive me. Like really the whole world is telling you at this point "What ever." Seriously, I don't care what happened between you and Hades, I don't even care what happened between myself and Hades.
I feel like I've added more drama and I aplogize because that is what I'm trying to stay away from but idk, I just think this is too dumb at this point.
~16
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I for one am happy that you wont be coming back. I just got back to the forums and after the fiasco you caused when you left and the chaos it caused to the players of our servers I would be repulsed to see you back on the roster.
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It is amazing. People have a marvelous way of painting an idea and spinning off of it to make something bigger and worse. Death knows why I made my points, and decides to paint it differently. I don't believe my describing my reasons will make any difference when the leader chooses to turn a blind eye to the truth in the matter. I have been clear in my private messages to him, as to why he cannot see the light in my suggestion is beyond me, and decide to grandstand on the one topic.. I guess I really am not worth his time. I am sure there are a couple of you who really know the truth, but don't bother shedding light on this as it will only threaten how people perceive you.
All in all, Hats off Hades, and Death made his choice clear to protect your association.
Good luck with things, I am sure you will do just fine without me.
Well, we've been doing well without you soooo....
Btw, here's a tip in leadership: if a leader turns a blind eye to something without taking in advice from his subordinates, then that person is not a good leader.
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Oh hey I am back.
Why is it that I always seem to miss the good stuff...
Anyways, Pixels was a good leader and everything and having him back could put the group back on track to where it was when I started out. I have my own good thoughts about Pix that I have openly shared to him, whether it was giving me a chance to be forum moderator and other stuff a year ago.
However, bad blood is in the water.
Do we all like everyone on the staff list? Absolutely not. But to create a healthy working enviroment, we have to get along and if people are going to hate to have Pixels back than rather having him leave then who is going to listen to him when gives us orders or changes rules?
It is complicated, and I think people need to be proffesional about this.
And I also found out 15 minutes ago that Hades left.
I really need to stay on track of things~
-Sins
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Pixels left because we chose to give one person a second chance. He destroyed our steam groups at the time causing quite a bit of concern in our player base. He kept a second account in tf2ss which (either on purpose or just lucky for him) he used to spy on what our reactions were. I don't remember much of what happened due to shat memory but I'm sure there was more that happened. And now he comes to us on the forums not saying sorry for the chaos his actions created (most of the admins and players had no idea what to do. That I do remember) but instead demanding conditions from us. Are you kidding me. He has no respect from me and as I said in a previous post I'd be repulsed if we even accepted him back after this. If by some miracle he gets back in a head position I would be professional toward him since that is what is being asked of us as admins, to be professional, but I would be shocked if we just cleared the slate now. Not to mention where was the professionalism from him when we were considering letting Hades back. It's kinda ridiculous that we should have to be the bigger person in such a hypocritical situation.
Sorry for rambling and I don't mean for this to be argumentative toward you sins but more building off the points you made. My thoughts aren't very organized right now XD
Edit: http://tf2swapshop.com/forum/index.php?topic=246.0
This post shows the chaos that was happened. Mostly through the copy paste posts made by pix from the report bot.
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Trust me Umbara, I know what happened. I was there when it all went down. I agree what you have to say. Its hard though for me to totally neglect Pix on what he did for me and what he did for the community. However, he did act childish when it came to Hades being an Admin.
Hell, i was scared when Hades came back. I didn't trust him and I was afraid of what the group was going to turn out.
I left the group around when Pix did, but for totally different reasons. I didnt leave because he came back. That's nonsense. Pix did leave us when we were at our lowest, when the forums were coming back on.
I feel like maybe Pix is returning only because Hades left. We all know that, however I feel like thats kinda a dick move.
I returned a month after I left the first time because the servers (as much as people would disagree with me) were troubled with abusive admins, trouble makers, and lack of care. I dont feel like thats the case with Pixels.
Take this as what you may.
-Sins
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I'm one of the latest server admins so I feel that as an admin I do not have a say in this situation even after getting parts of the story and putting all the pieces together. I do, however, have a say in this as someone who has common sense and cares about the community. Pixels, I've heard of the many great things you've done for this community. I can understand your point of view as to why you somewhat feel betrayed that Death let Hades apply before, feeling like your friend whom you've know for 17-18+ years just turned his back on you. The way I see it, you turned your back on someone that trusted you by worrying about your selfish desires. As a man in his 40's you should know by now that there are assholes wherever you go in this world, so why does it have to be different with Hades? If you hate him so much you could've just ignored him. Are you telling me that if you hated a co-worker in real life you would sabotage the whole company to get away from that person? You have to understand, you gotta let go. After reading your selfish conditions, I personally don't want you back in this community. And I'm not saying you would do it, but please don't single me out for stating my opinion just because I'm a new guy to the whole admin thing. I still have the right to voice my opinion on the matter, and the way I see it, your conditions are only for your benefits not for the community. I respected you for what you did to help the community grow but then I lost respect for you after finding out what you did when Hades came back and after reading your stupid conditions. As Hades said, you have to give it a rest and just watch the community grow from a distance.
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Let me first say, Death, you had plenty of opportunity to redeem yourself. Don't blame me for shining a light on you.
My intent in this thread was not to appear selfish. I had conditions, which all of you failed to understand which were in my opinion best for the communities best interest. I will say again, I gave Hades many chances, and he never gave up attempting to undermine my decisions, coaching others to attack me and finally convincing the owner to invalidate my concerns. I removed Hades from this community, to which Flying knife was around to see, but yet he is unbanned and finally promoted back to staff levels. How am I to do my job as an admin if I decide that someone is repeatedly misbehaving and causing grief to leave the community only to be second guessed not only by staff but also by the owner. Even suggestions "threatening" other staff by Hade's "coached associate" "would be a bad thing" if they associated with me, during my absence was mirrored to me by two staff. Hades even tried to infiltrate our community by using his girlfriends computer, and even attempting to impersonate myself. These are attributes which lead me to believe that he doesn't deserve being integrated into the community. I am sure he will be more careful next time when he attempts to steamroll another staff's reputation. This is why I feel break of association is crucial with special circumstances to certain previous staff, and especially with those who choose to be banned from our servers AND forum by disrespecting our guidelines and attempting to cause dissent.
I ALSO did NOT destroy any Steam group, get that out of your head, DEATH wrecked it. I didn't give a stop order to it, Death did. I never bad mouthed the community, and Deaths statement that I did is in whole invalid and incorrect. Just because someone assumed something doesn't make it correct. This is all giving a sour taste to my mouth hearing again and again. If anything you guys should be asking what Death could have done differently to avoid this mess in the future. I am not going to waste my time while Death sits by idle and allow you guys to twist things to make it appear it is something like it isn't, while stereotyping me while referring to me as a child without stepping in and correcting you guys. This is a serious flaw.
Sins, Flying Knife, Death and Sixteen should know better.
I was considering re-applying as a courtesy to those asking me to come back as I was "being missed".
You blew it for good guys, all of you. Don't ask me to re-join again.
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Oh my. So many things wrong with that, but I actually don't care. This post isn't an application, it's just a poll. Even if we agreed with you, you would then have to apply and do this all over again. It looks like it isn't gonna work out.
But seriously there is so much wrong with that post and it's stressing me out and I would want to respond to clear things up, but don't think my revisions would connect with your mind, so it would be best I leave it alone.
~16
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I will say again, I gave Hades many chances, and he never gave up attempting to undermine my decisions....
Dont remember this. See below.
Even suggestions "threatening" other staff by Hade's "coached associate" "would be a bad thing" if they associated with me....
I never coached others. See bottom paragraph. I also believe correct grammar would be Hades' .
Hades even tried to infiltrate our community by using his girlfriends computer...
Never attempted this. What actually happened was something different. I was at his house. I rebooted my computer and tested to see if the ban was an IP or simply steamID. I expected an IP ban and sure enough it confirmed it was. Also boyfriend, not girlfriend.
...and even attempting to impersonate myself.
(http://i1.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/facebook/000/005/545/OpoQQ.jpg)
Literally all I can say to this is: the fuck. Why in god's name would I impersonate someone such as yourself? I admit I despised you to a certain degree before I decided to move on. Never would I attempt to impersonate you nor anyone else. My name history doesn't even have that. Nor does my alt.
Refer to bottom statement.
I am sure he will be more careful next time when he attempts to steamroll another staff's reputation.
You did this all on your own Pixels. Now you get to reap the benefits just as I had and now have to.
I had conditions, which all of you failed to understand which were in my opinion best for the communities best interest.
The way in which you stated them is selfish. Words are everything as we cannot here the tone of voice you used, your body language. You said:
The following conditions must be met prior to my re-applying:
Arrogant, selfish, your entire first post not just this sentence sounded as if you expected SS owed you.
I ALSO did NOT destroy any Steam group, get that out of your head, DEATH wrecked it. I didn't give a stop order to it, Death did.
I call BS. And not just me, many of us sing a familiar tune when it comes to this. You kicked everyone thereby indicating the group was yours, just as you did in the gone post. "we lost them with your stepping down". How you cannot see the consequence of your actions is beyond me.
I never bad mouthed the community
You might as well call it that. Lets look at what you have done:
1. In your gone post you
A. Told everyone before leaving "Hope yall get fucked over by him"
B. Used a secondary account to spy on peoples reactions( as pointed out by umbara)
C. Quit as head administrator.
2. You insulted Death many times, public some of them, the rest private I am sure..
Your profile contains one such example:
Fractal3 Jun 27, 2015 @ 11:14am
I understand. I only hope Death checks his brain cells before it is too late. The more time passes, the more cemented my decision will be.
JCapps (Sm4sh poophead) Jun 27, 2015 @ 9:02am
Hey man. Regardless of what your standings are with tf2swapshop, you were always a valuable friend to me and I don't want to lose you. Whether it be sniping with death and attention kit or helping me test some stuff with my server, you always had this friendly aura that made everyone's day a little better.
Just because someone assumed something doesn't make it correct.
You assumed multiple times about my actions back before YOU fired me Pixels. Not ONCE, not a single time, did you come to me and talk about your concerns. That I remember. When I asked you about certain situations you gave cryptic answers worse than that of Yoda. If a "leader" fails to take the time to help educate his colleague, you are no longer a good leader. You expected too much from someone who couldn't understand what was being told to him. Not only that but you were so rooted against change that when I made the HTML staff page the first time(the current one marks the second one created) you thought it would replace your BBC post, and tried everything you could to get it taken down. I went against you in that. So I am sure that is one of your times of "gave Hades many chances, and he never gave up attempting to undermine my decisions....". You even went so far as to make a ban against Spydex (You all may not like him but please listen), the ban reason do you remember? "Fuck it, never liked the guy". You banned someone for not liking them. How can you call yourself a good leader when you made actions like that? I am also not the only one that saw the ban. However I can't say their names for obvious reasons. You also banned me from the forum. Then after banning me proceeded to tell your side of the story. And guess what? I couldn't do anything about it, you ruined friendships that I had with others, burned bridges. The reason people went against you, wasn't "coaching", it was because they agreed. The only one sounding like they were coaching people is you pixels.
We both made mistakes pixels. The difference between you and me is simple yet vast. Where I acknowledge what I have done, You either deny, or blame someone else.
Hades
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As Chrid said, he deserves a second chance. Everyone does.
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As Chrid said, he deserves a second chance. Everyone does.
(http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/360654226322718587/EB167256834ADBF76C705840818C340BCD89E6A2/)
Funny, you and others didn't think I deserved a second chance.
Hades
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Hades, while I was not here when this happened (this has been said at least 1M times), I have to agree with your side of the story/argument. At least half of what pixels posted just didn't seem to be possible, given what has been said and posted on the forums in the past (at least what is still left of his aftermath). We can only hope that Pixels stays true to his own words
I was considering re-applying as a courtesy to those asking me to come back as I was "being missed".
You blew it for good guys, all of you. Don't ask me to re-join again.
and doesn't "use a secondary account to spy..." on reactions or whatever he did to wriggle his way into the community.
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After reading Sins' post, the reason I joined was mostly due to the lack of admins. I mean, so far I've only known two before being signed on, which were Scot and Scorch. Hell, I applied twice and both times and twice I wasn't given a clear reason as to why I wasn't instated, but third time's the charm did it.
But anyway, I have an honest question: Did anyone ask for Pixels to come back? It's just a simple answer, I ain't pointing names. If not, then this has been a waste, and I'd like to have this thread closed or archived. While I got a better understanding of why these two are in a flame war, too much bad blood in this topic, and I'd hate to see it get out of hand.
P.S. Hades' pictures are making me laugh.
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I ALSO did NOT destroy any Steam group, get that out of your head, DEATH wrecked it. I didn't give a stop order to it, Death did. I never bad mouthed the community, and Deaths statement that I did is in whole invalid and incorrect. Just because someone assumed something doesn't make it correct. This is all giving a sour taste to my mouth hearing again and again. If anything you guys should be asking what Death could have done differently to avoid this mess in the future.
You deleted all staff from the group and proceeded to delete all of our group information and had replaced it with your own comments and remarks. Sorry as I am unable to provide quotes due to the group being locked and shutdown. You even stated that you were the group owner and as such we lost them when you left.
I did not destroy the forums, I did not modify sourcebans, I owned the groups and as such you lost them with my stepping down from this community.
If that isn't a hostile take over - what is it then?
Yes it is true that Pixels did open and start our community group and their for he was the so called steam community owner but that doesn't give him the right to destroy our community image and name. - I am the sole owner of both TF2SwapShop.com & TF2SS.com none of witch pixels has any rights to.
I had to step in and take legal action - I sent steam a DMCA takedown notice to seize control of the old group so pixels could no longer post his hate and slander about us. It is steams policy to not transfer ownership of a group so it has been disabled.
As I have stated previously, I took action to protect our community and if I had to go down this road again I would take the same actions.
When Hades made his application you didn't say a single word to anyone. You had a voice and chose to sit by and do nothing (its ironic as I keep getting blamed of doing this myself). All admins had at the time was a conversation that took place on the report bot - not all admins were present when you said Hades is in im out.
You want to know what I should have done differently... Well quite honestly nothing. We as a whole have always decided the outcome of applications. We all have voices and say our part. You really should be asking yourself what you could have done differently.
Your angry and pissed off at me for allowing someone to post an application and go through the process... Its a fact of life that not everyone is going to get along and like each other.
Its time to move on.