Peter's Question

[Ἀΐδης]

As I said, you've seriously not looked deep enough.

Please explain what it is I am missing. Will be more than happy to address it.


Hades

[Peter Capaldi's Peter Capaldi]

As I said, you've seriously not looked deep enough.

Please explain what it is I am missing. Will be more than happy to address it.


Hades

SwapShop's grasp and concept upon what defines ones' ability to submit an staff application is something I deeply disagree with. It all comes around in a full circle. Admins get demoted or they leave and then they come back and they try to become an admin again. We barely have anyone on these forums with the tag "member." Isn't that a problem for any online establishment with a forum? No one here can accept their consequences nor can they commit.

I mean, heck, I wanted to leave and I got banned, but I came back. To be snide, this place's members barely exist, yet their admins are the members. Think on that irony. Everybody talks about the power administration gives and how that power always corrodes the people who take it. It's also freely and easily acquired. To be snide, Admin isn't even "administrator" because it's just pure power.

We need less admins. Less is more. If you want to change this place and if you want to really focus or improve as an administration, then you have to become smaller. This is what I meant when I said, "less is more."

In addition, I also believe this forum's appearance and styling sucks. That and who uses an HTTP protocol these days? 'Cmon, you and I have talked about this sort of security topic. Money is certainly an issue, but I have a feeling that money isn't the true problem. Money can push you around, but you're mind and heart can overcome.

[Ἀΐδης]

Admins get demoted or they leave and then they come back and they try to become an admin again. We barely have anyone on these forums with the tag "member." Isn't that a problem for any online establishment with a forum? No one here can accept their consequences nor can they commit.

"You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make it drink."

Our administrators come and they leave for reasons being their own. Think about this. Demotion is the final act against them. If being demoted/fired doesn't phase them, then there is nothing we can do. SwapShop allows staff to leave and come back. Some do so because they need a break, others believe they won't have the time, and some will even take a break to get things in order in their personal life. Being an administrator takes its toll upon an individual. We are not paid for the services we render. Think about that. The only payment we get are: Stereotypes thrown by players, insults, threats, and reports. If that is considered a form of a payment we would be millionaires. Some administrators grow tired of the daily abuse and decide they no longer wish to continue. I can respect that. For those who abuse and are fired, there is nothing else we can do besides ban from the forums and the servers as a last resort. Such are extreme measures and shouldn't be used to force someone to make posts on the forums explaining themselves. When someone abuses they are asked to explain themselves. IF they do it is taken into account as to what punishment they should receive. Same situation should they not wish to explain themselves. These conversations, in terms of talking to the administrator found to be abusing, are done in a private conversation. This is to prevent naming and Shaming. Asking someone to post on the forums and state they were the ones to abuse and show themselves will bring hate upon them. Not only will it bring hate to them from others, they will be scrutinized, made fun of, lose friends, etc.. This is why it is done in private and not made public. If others happen to be on the server and decided to reveal such information sadly there is nothing we can do to prevent that. There are times that it may be needed to reveal who did. Example being staff reports. Reason being that this allows us to investigate the claim of abuse and see if action needs to be done/taken.

I mean, heck, I wanted to leave and I got banned, but I came back. To be snide, this place's members barely exist, yet their admins are the members.

Administrators, unlike players, have to use the forums as part of their agreement to be an administrator. If an administrator does not get on the forums and does not give prior notice of being gone, they are labeled as inactive. Players can choose to use the forum. Now ideas can be presented to help bring players to the forums. If you would to feel free to make a post in the feedback/suggestion area of the forum.

Everybody talks about the power administration gives and how that power always corrodes the people who take it. It's also freely and easily acquired. To be snide, Admin isn't even "administrator" because it's just pure power.

Administration is not easily acquired. Let me tell you the history of administration. There use to be no qualifications as shown here: http://tf2swapshop.com/forum/index.php?topic=107.0  . Those use to not exist. I created them originally. They were to act as a filter to help identify the administrator candidates ideal for SwapShop. They are changing and being added too to this day. Before they came into existence administrators use to only have to make an application and get 5 people to say why they would be a good fit as administrator. Then it would be up to Head administration as to accept or deny. Today, as of a recent change, Recruit Specialists and Head Administration determine if an application is Accepted or Denied.  It is by no means easy to get administrator. As always improvements will be made to Swapshop's system with both administrator and players feedback.

We need less admins. Less is more. If you want to change this place and if you want to really focus or improve as an administration, then you have to become smaller. This is what I meant when I said, "less is more."

Change starts with the individual who wants it. As I previously stated staff sits at 20 administrators. This is for 60 servers, lowing the administration count would be less than ideal.

In addition, I also believe this forum's appearance and styling sucks. That and who uses an HTTP protocol these days? 'Cmon, you and I have talked about this sort of security topic. Money is certainly an issue, but I have a feeling that money isn't the true problem. Money can push you around, but you're mind and heart can overcome.[/size][/font]

SwapShop is more than 4 years old. If you have constructive ideas to help make the forums better, then by all means make a post suggesting them. Keep in mind the appearance of the forum is limited by the software. This forum software is free and modifications to help make the forum not only function better but also add features can be added.


Hades

[Sixteen]

And dare I bring this up because I do not want yet another post to end up just becoming a "Become a Member", but the whole thing is indirectly backwards. My main rhetorical question is: What is a member?

Peter, given how you've laid out what a member is, even you are not a member. I've been led to believe that a member is someone who plays on the servers but also posts on the forums, but is not an admin. Yet you, only post on the forums. You do not play on the servers. So I ask: What would you consider yourself?

Maybe to be a member all you have to do is post on the forums, or play on the servers, while still not being an admin. If that is the case, then you are definitely a member, but then so are hundreds of other people who just play on servers.

And furthermore, I don't mean to make this dramatic, but the only time people post is in response to an application or when there is a problem. Members are not required for these topics and it is actually expected that admins would be the ones to respond.

~16

[Peter Capaldi's Peter Capaldi]

"You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make it drink."

Our administrators come and they leave for reasons being their own. Think about this. Demotion is the final act against them. If being demoted/fired doesn't phase them, then there is nothing we can do. SwapShop allows staff to leave and come back. Some do so because they need a break, others believe they won't have the time, and some will even take a break to get things in order in their personal life. Being an administrator takes its toll upon an individual. We are not paid for the services we render. Think about that. The only payment we get are: Stereotypes thrown by players, insults, threats, and reports. If that is considered a form of a payment we would be millionaires. Some administrators grow tired of the daily abuse and decide they no longer wish to continue. I can respect that. For those who abuse and are fired, there is nothing else we can do besides ban from the forums and the servers as a last resort. Such are extreme measures and shouldn't be used to force someone to make posts on the forums explaining themselves. When someone abuses they are asked to explain themselves. IF they do it is taken into account as to what punishment they should receive. Same situation should they not wish to explain themselves. These conversations, in terms of talking to the administrator found to be abusing, are done in a private conversation. This is to prevent naming and Shaming. Asking someone to post on the forums and state they were the ones to abuse and show themselves will bring hate upon them. Not only will it bring hate to them from others, they will be scrutinized, made fun of, lose friends, etc.. This is why it is done in private and not made public. If others happen to be on the server and decided to reveal such information sadly there is nothing we can do to prevent that. There are times that it may be needed to reveal who did. Example being staff reports. Reason being that this allows us to investigate the claim of abuse and see if action needs to be done/taken.

I can certainly understand this. Admins are certainly being abused; the admins who are actually active. In addition, why tolerate such magnitudes of abuse? From what I've heard, a good pack of admins aren't active. Send my apologies to those I have hurt or abused within the administration through my words here on the forums. What I hope what the admins will understand that the means, intention end goal is not to abuse and wrong administrators. But that has and will happen. For that, I apologize. However, that doesn't mean I am retracting. People get hurt. So what? Everyone does. In my opinion, if people aren't up to administration, then they should consider a commitment to dedicated permanent membership. Who knows? Some people's talents may not belong within administration and some people's talents need to be allocated to the administration.

You're right. I can't lead a horse to water and make it drink. But that statement holds true if and only if any such is metaphorically such. In a different light, I can't convince you guys that this is an issue that's shaking up SwapShop. But guess what? Eventually, the horse starts doing things on its own and it eventually takes a sip of water by its own will. I 'spose there's more here than either of us will ever know.

Administrators, unlike players, have to use the forums as part of their agreement to be an administrator. If an administrator does not get on the forums and does not give prior notice of being gone, they are labeled as inactive. Players can choose to use the forum. Now ideas can be presented to help bring players to the forums. If you would to feel free to make a post in the feedback/suggestion area of the forum.

Ya? Here's some questions for you. Which boards? Admins have to use the boards so do they have to be active on the boards? Do they have to post on the boards? When do you allow people to slack off and how far can that go for both the slacker and the worker? Admins are required to use the forums, but why hang on the public boards when there aren't any active members? See, forcing forum usage is sort of a double standard. It's not a double standard when we're talking about the admin invis boards. It is a double standard when we're talking about all of the public boards. It's simple to fix this sort of double standard.

Not easy, but it's simple. You get more members. There's a plethora of methods we could use, but when I look at the number of administrators we have in this establishment and the amount of new members who apply, I see the issue being with the power of the position and the application system. I can't make a horse drink that water; I can't make people consider nor act upon requested demotion. But I can inform people. People aren't always like horses that don't drink from led sources, bud. Most times, throughout the journey and in the end, personal experience and knowledge lead people to the water and those who listen drink.

Administration is not easily acquired. Let me tell you the history of administration. There use to be no qualifications as shown here: http://tf2swapshop.com/forum/index.php?topic=107.0  . Those use to not exist. I created them originally. They were to act as a filter to help identify the administrator candidates ideal for SwapShop. They are changing and being added too to this day. Before they came into existence administrators use to only have to make an application and get 5 people to say why they would be a good fit as administrator. Then it would be up to Head administration as to accept or deny. Today, as of a recent change, Recruit Specialists and Head Administration determine if an application is Accepted or Denied.  It is by no means easy to get administrator. As always improvements will be made to Swapshop's system with both administrator and players feedback.

I 'spose I appreciate your effort. It's actually pretty cool. I do, in fact, have a suggestion to improve the application system. I suggest SwapShop requires new members to reach certain statistical limits before they're eligible to apply for a staff position. The limit could be related to a number or a member level on the forums. Those roles being, "Senior Memeber", "Veteran SwapShop Member", ect. Most of the forums I have come by implement restrictions or limits to particular capabilities prior to reaching a statistical limit. If we do get new dedicated, active and permanent members, then we should also consider placing limits on other features.

This could potentially lead to spam. However, if people are spamming to apply for administrator, then we know their true character and motives. In addition, just because we have something that could bring "bad" to anything doesn't mean that we shouldn't take such a risk. This also ensures that some gain experience and some have time to choose where they want to spend their talents in SwapShop.

Change starts with the individual who wants it. As I previously stated staff sits at 20 administrators. This is for 60 servers, lowing the administration count would be less than ideal.

I changed. I left the in-game servers and I decided to take the forums. I am the change I want to see. I changed from being mostly a server member to a forum member. I want to see forum members and I that some of those members deviate from my example and remain in-game server members. I am your only dedicated active SwapShop forum member. I disagree with your ideal model for the servers based upon the observations and reasons I have previously stated.

SwapShop is more than 4 years old. If you have constructive ideas to help make the forums better, they by all means make a post suggesting them. Keep in mind the appearance of the forum is limited by the software. This forum software is free and modifications to help make the forum not only function better but also add features can be added.

You know, I'm glad you asked. I've seen some nice styling on XenForo. Link: https://xenforo.com/ Personally, we could use a little more chamfer-esque boxes. Widen the width of posts similar to or exactly to the width of post previews. Add in a reaction, vote, thumbs up or thumbs down or like system of sorts. The emojis on the forums look horribly pixelated. Can't you just code message creation page or functions to use higher quality images for emojis? The main font could also be changed. I'm not sure which font so I'll look into that. Maybe we could change that SwapShop logo at the top right hand corner. (Hint, hint: Similar to that SS Discord art maybe)?

Those are the ideas that I could pull from my head at this time. Of course, there's also the HTTPS thing which could help against LAN attacks targeting unaware users and probably a bunch of other attacks, but I've already covered that suggestion. I'll be prowling around Google for some more forum style suggestions. There are also a bunch of really well designed TF2 forums and sites with a modern look. I think we should be following that kind of trend.

And dare I bring this up because I do not want yet another post to end up just becoming a "Become a Member", but the whole thing is indirectly backwards. My main rhetorical question is: What is a member?

Peter, given how you've laid out what a member is, even you are not a member. I've been led to believe that a member is someone who plays on the servers but also posts on the forums, but is not an admin. Yet you, only post on the forums. You do not play on the servers. So I ask: What would you consider yourself?

I'm not so certain that you have been completely led to believe the such. That is true. While I am not an in-game server memeber, I am a forum member. That's what you've explained. The such would be true for any other member in a similar position.

Maybe to be a member all you have to do is post on the forums, or play on the servers, while still not being an admin. If that is the case, then you are definitely a member, but then so are hundreds of other people who just play on servers.

But this is what you've really found. This is what I'm trying to get people to see and you're getting it. But guess what? They're voice rejects the forums. Maybe it's for reasons regarding the objective state of SwapShop and its stereotyped administration. Maybe it's because SwapShop may suck at advertising the forums. Maybe it's the website's design style. Maybe all is true and those who participate in-game may feel like it would be wrong or immoral to advertise the such. Who knows, right? But it's all the same. They reject the forums. Yet, the forums need members.

I have to and I want to, in some way, be their voice; or rather, the voice of the future the voice on behalf of the future. But it could just go south as you always try to tell me. It could all be for naught. I know why you see it as foolish. There are reasons why I am doing this. I want to do this; I think it's necessary; I keeps me occupied; it helps SwapShop in some way; it's for the benefit of SwapShop; and the list could go on. Sooner or later, I will have different reasons that speak to different individuals. It's sort of probable and inevitable. People will also have their explanations for my actions as well. That's the funny thing about free speech, isn't it? Speech is the only variable that can trump time.

But if I don't try, then I have everything to loose. But if I win or if I fail, then there is still a victory. Besides, there's a lot of reasons why I'm doing this. It's like a Charlie Sheen kind of thing. I always recommend reading the Art of War if you get the chance.

And furthermore, I don't mean to make this dramatic, but the only time people post is in response to an application or when there is a problem. Members are not required for these topics and it is actually expected that admins would be the ones to respond.

Dude, to me, that isn't dramatic. That's just the truth. Unfortunately, this has become another "Become a Member" kind of post. I mean, think about the title of the post. My question == My Current Rhetoric? Get it, eh? It comes around full circle. I almost feel like people or someone wants me to post this "Become a Member" stuff. "Wake up the guy and he'll talk" is what I'm trying to say. That, and I'm determined. You can call me Frisk if you like.

[Ἀΐδης]

People get hurt. So what? Everyone does. In my opinion, if people aren't up to administration, then they should consider a commitment to dedicated permanent membership. Who knows? Some people's talents may not belong within administration and some people's talents need to be allocated to the administration.

Just because one isn't an administrator does not mean the abuse stops. After being an administrator my second time and was made back to a member of the community, players that I had put restrictions on, those that thought i hacked, etc.. tried their best to irritate me. Throwing insults, calling names, plus much more. You say that if you are not up to the task then don't be an administrator right? Here is the thing, verbal abuse doesn't end. I was born into this world and was bullied for 6+ years, since I didn't like it should I have dropped out of school? Do you believe that we are wasting our time with those that are abusing? IF such is the case I am going to have to tell you that you are wrong. I had to teach administrators the forums,servers, Sourcebans, etc.. They made their share of mistakes, but damn they learned from them. That is the point. We all make mistakes in this world, how we choose to learn from them determines who we are.  Some people that apply have never been an administrator, but if they do not try how will they know if they enjoy helping people on the servers and stop problems when they happen. People always have a choice. and if they have never experienced something before how are they going to know if they are cut out for it?  Sometimes people may think they are not up to the task, so they take a break, refresh their batteries, and come back ready. Would you really expect a fighter to continue fighting everyday all day?

You're right. I can't lead a horse to water and make it drink. But that statement holds true if and only if any such is metaphorically such. In a different light, I can't convince you guys that this is an issue that's shaking up SwapShop. But guess what? Eventually, the horse starts doing things on its own and it eventually takes a sip of water by its own will.

And you are right, the horse will eventually drink water to survive, but... that doesn't mean it will be from your source of water.

Ya? Here's some questions for you. Which boards? Admins have to use the boards so do they have to be active on the boards? Do they have to post on the boards? When do you allow people to slack off and how far can that go for both the slacker and the worker? Admins are required to use the forums, but why hang on the public boards when there aren't any active members? See, forcing forum usage is sort of a double standard. It's not a double standard when we're talking about the admin invis boards. It is a double standard when we're talking about all of the public boards. It's simple to fix this sort of double standard.

Administrator application boards, Staff only boards, etc... . Peter remember regular players cannot see everything that a staff member can see. Administrators are not exactly forced to, if accommodations have to be meet for an individual, then it can be worked out. It isn't an all or nothing way of doing something. The reason it is a requirement is so that all administrators are caught up on the latest news about what is happening and the newest applicants. Hence the forum requirement.

Not easy, but it's simple. You get more members. There's a plethora of methods we could use, but when I look at the number of administrators we have in this establishment and the amount of new members who apply, I see the issue being with the power of the position and the application system. I can't make a horse drink that water; I can't make people consider nor act upon requested demotion. But I can inform people. People aren't always like horses that don't drink from led sources, bud. Most times, throughout the journey and in the end, personal experience and knowledge lead people to the water and those who listen drink.[/size][/font]

"What does a man with power want? More power"(The Matrix)
While it is true, some applicants desire the power that comes with the job, but it is also the respect as well sometimes. We do our best to identify these individuals, but keep in mind just because someone abuses, does not mean those are the reasons.

I 'spose I appreciate your effort. It's actually pretty cool. I do, in fact, have a suggestion to improve the application system. I suggest SwapShop requires new members to reach certain statistical limits before they're eligible to apply for a staff position. The limit could be related to a number or a member level on the forums. Those roles being, "Senior Memeber", "Veteran SwapShop Member", ect. Most of the forums I have come by implement restrictions or limits to particular capabilities prior to reaching a statistical limit. If we do get new dedicated and active permanent members, then we should also consider placing limits on other features.

Now that is an interesting suggestion.  We can look into something along those lines about X post count.

This could potentially lead to spam. However, if people are spamming to apply for administrator, then we know their true character and motives. In addition, just because we have something that could bring "bad" to anything doesn't mean that we shouldn't take such a risk. This also ensures that some gain experience and some have time to choose where they want to spend their talents in SwapShop.[/size][/font]

As stated before, abuse will come from anything. But we can be prepared for it with rules and such the like.

You know, I'm glad you asked. I've seen some nice styling on XenForo. Link: https://xenforo.com/ Personally, we could use a little more chamfer-esque boxes. Widen the width of posts similar to or exactly to the width of post previews. Add in a reaction, vote, thumbs up or thumbs down or like system of sorts. The emojis on the forums look horribly pixelated. Can't you just code message creation page or functions to use higher quality images for emojis? The main font could also be changed. I'm not sure which font so I'll look into that. Maybe we could change that SwapShop logo at the top right hand corner. (Hint, hint: Similar to that SS Discord art maybe)?

I started my own community and looked into Xenforo as a forum software. Certainly had some awesome stuff to it. Here is the problem. Pricing of their software is ridiculous in my opinion.

Branding Removal - $250*
Installation Service - $50*
XenForo Media Gallery - $60*
XenForo Resource Manager - $60*
XenForo Enhanced Search - $50*
XenForo License $140 (Just the forum itself)


Hades

[Sixteen]

Peter, you make a lot of claims. On most of your posts, you say "I do this and I do that." Above you were talking about all these things you do for the people of SwapShop, yet I don't see any of it. You make posts, which ideally would be a good start, but at this point, it is spammy. You need to take initiative and actually try to make your plans work.

Containers
08C
SS Discord
SS Security
Attracting New Players
Become a Member.
~16

These are all things you tried to start and then they just fall off the face of the earth.
Containers: Literally all you had to do was give Death the map and tell him "put it on this server#, it consistently gets 0 players, i think this could help boost the amount of consistent players you get, and if it doesn't work out for a week, we can change it back." Remember that terrible map you made to replace Orange Towers? That is the exact process I went through and the map got changed.

08C. You wanted get a group of peeps for competitive. You didn't do anything about it. It was very possible, but it wasn't organized. You didn't put your foot down and tell people when and who will be playing. Xerbat and Nuggz brought everyone to their own discord and actually played competitive with the same lot as 08C. He got that job done. It was definitely possible.

SS discord. I have no idea. It could work, but once again, no one did anything about it. But people talk in game anyhow so, so be it.

SS Security. Hades already covered this.

Attracting new players. I have no idea. It seems you don't either.

Become a member. This is the point of this post. Who is your audience? Is it people who come to the forum to apply for administration. That's nonsensical because they are coming to the forums to be admins. Is your audience the admins? Why would they demote themselves being that anything they do as a "member" they can already do as an admin? Is your audience the people who play on the servers? Yes. That is the answer. No question. You yourself want people from servers to come to the forums. That's where your words would be most effective, but of course: YOU DON'T PLAY ON SERVERS. You shouldn't be posting this on the forums because no one is there to hear you. They are all on the forums, yet you shot yourself in the foot and decided to not play on the servers.

If you want change to happen, you have to take initiative. Making posts is a good first step, but eventually the repetition just becomes spam.

~16

[Psy]

To summarize Sixteen's point: Actions speak louder than words.

Peter, you have the right idea, but you're just ranting about it and expecting everyone else to do it. Don't be a hypocrite. Don't expect things to get done if you, yourself aren't going the extreme measures to make things happen.

Not once have I ever made a long post complaining about the forums and servers WITHOUT confronting Death and the rest of staff about it to find out our options.

This is OUR community. Be a part of it.

"Become a community member." - Peter's latest slogan for SS members.

[Peter Capaldi's Peter Capaldi]

Just because one isn't an administrator does not mean the abuse stops. After being an administrator my second time and was made back to a member of the community, players that I had put restrictions on, those that thought i hacked, etc.. tried their best to irritate me. Throwing insults, calling names, plus much more. You say that if you are not up to the task then don't be an administrator right? Here is the thing, verbal abuse doesn't end. I was born into this world and was bullied for 6+ years, since I didn't like it should I have dropped out of school? Do you believe that we are wasting our time with those that are abusing? IF such is the case I am going to have to tell you that you are wrong. I had to teach administrators the forums,servers, Sourcebans, etc.. They made their share of mistakes, but damn they learned from them. That is the point. We all make mistakes in this world, how we choose to learn from them determines who we are.  Some people that apply have never been an administrator, but if they do not try how will they know if they enjoy helping people on the servers and stop problems when they happen. People always have a choice. and if they have never experienced something before how are they going to know if they are cut out for it?  Sometimes people may think they are not up to the task, so they take a break, refresh their batteries, and come back ready. Would you really expect a fighter to continue fighting everyday all day?

Man, you're so right. That kind of abuse doesn't stop. But you still have the ability to report those people. My heart broke when I listened to what breaks yours. Seriously. Six years of bullying is sour. I feel for you, I was once in the same situation. My problem is that I try too hard to forget the events and I succeed at that everyday. It's messed up and it affects how I learn from those events in hindsight. However, I do have some hindsight. But let me tell you something. You not only have the power to protect yourself, but you also have the power to change their hearts. Guess what? Everyone is a fighter but sometimes they're not the stormtrooper we are looking for. Let me assure you from one who's always been on the other side of that gatekeeper from day one; it's true. You've experienced it, I'm sure.

Here's where that fogginess of mine comes into play... This is cold but I'll say this. Tough beans. I know you know this and I get it wrong just you, the guy next door and everyone else. Seriously, take me as you've found me. That's obvious, right? It's obvious to the mind but not to the heart. I see it and I know you've got it under your belt. But man, once you get it under your belt it only gets harder. Mastering something is just like the beginning to a new day.

And you are right, the horse will eventually drink water to survive, but... that doesn't mean it will be from your source of water.

No, see, that depends upon where you bring the horse. It's not about the person as the source of water. The person is not the source of water because the source of water is dependent on the location. Yes, the person is the provider, but that Horse can choose to go wherever that horse wants to go. The person is not the horse's source of water because the person leads the horse to a source. This is similar to your upbringing and your own freedom. I'm not sure if it's the best way to describe it figuratively, but that's how I'm putting it for now. if you get and follow the message of my figure of speech, then you should be able to see the half-measure.

But you know what? Reality is quite blunt. You are NOT mistaken. Look out for me as you have.

Administrator application boards, Staff only boards, etc... . Peter remember regular players cannot see everything that a staff member can see. Administrators are not exactly forced to, if accommodations have to be meet for an individual, then it can be worked out. It isn't an all or nothing way of doing something. The reason it is a requirement is so that all administrators are caught up on the latest news about what is happening and the newest applicants. Hence the forum requirement.

I understand what etc. means, but I'm just unsure. What about the discussion board, feedback and suggestions board, the off-topic board and the like? Yes, I know that I can't see those boards. I had poorly suggested at that when I said "admin invis boards." I can understand accommodations to a point but there must be discipline as well. You're absolutely correct. When I think about it, that's what I had found. It's not forced. I do believe there needs to be some discipline and force. Especially in the other public boards.

I know, I know. Everyone is not some happy-go-lucky guy who's gonna post on the Public forums because they're just so "bubbley" and perfect. But, hey! SwapShop's other public boards can, or rather, could be a place to unwind! It doesn't even need to be a place to unwind. It can be hardcore discussion too. I mean, we both know it. Only problem is that we don't have those members to help the admins out with a little cheering up and a little honest, civic, respectful and out-sider perspective. Some of the greatest things can happen on a forum. It doesn't have to be voice or text chat on a server. Besides, those methods are more instantaneous. Both slower and faster methods have their pros and cons. We just need the slower method, the forums, to advance.

"What does a man with power want? More power"(The Matrix)
While it is true, some applicants desire the power that comes with the job, but it is also the respect as well sometimes. We do our best to identify these individuals, but keep in mind just because someone abuses, does not mean those are the reasons.

I'm not going to respond with a rhetorical question. Combine your thought. In some ways, those who desire the power may have good intentions, goals and means to transform something. Those who desire the power can also desire the respect. Those desire both people could also be dark. It's all the same for the converse, eh? My father once said, "some people are like chocolate and some people are like onions."

However, I'm pretty much with you on this. When you discern between the applicants and the people, look into their heart. Then look into their morals. Finally, look into their character. Then, look into yourself. I hope you keep it in mind in heart. Because I think I haven't kept it within my mind and heart. I'm glad you guys do your best to look into the situation. Sometimes, you gotta step it up, revert or try something new.

Now that is an interesting suggestion.  We can look into something along those lines about X post count.

Welp. Now we're gettin' somewhere!

As stated before, abuse will come from anything. But we can be prepared for it with rules and such the like.

Ya. I get ya. We're not gonna talk about that whole "Topic that Shall Not be Named." I actually really appreciated what Sixteen and others had to offer in that moment. Ask me, Sixteen, Death or others about the incident via PM. I'm not opposed to you opening that can of worms on the public board either.

I started my own community and looked into Xenforo as a forum software. Certainly had some awesome stuff to it. Here is the problem. Pricing of their software is ridiculous in my opinion.

Branding Removal - $250*
Installation Service - $50*
XenForo Media Gallery - $60*
XenForo Resource Manager - $60*
XenForo Enhanced Search - $50*
XenForo License $140 (Just the forum itself)

Well, darn... Looks like we could look for some alternatives, eh? Either we look for the alternatives are we find a way to work for it. We may not even have to work for it, but still.

To summarize Sixteen's point: Actions speak louder than words.

Peter, you have the right idea, but you're just ranting about it and expecting everyone else to do it. Don't be a hypocrite. Don't expect things to get done if you, yourself aren't going the extreme measures to make things happen.

Not once have I ever made a long post complaining about the forums and servers WITHOUT confronting Death and the rest of staff about it to find out our options.

This is OUR community. Be a part of it.

"Become a community member." - Peter's latest slogan for SS members.

I'm starting to actually give some suggestions. Thanks for the help. I'll make sure to speak to Death, link him to suggestions when I've simplified the requests and such. I'm giving you guys too much credence I suppose. Look, I don't mean to say that I do much. Have I really done much, huh? Look at Sixteen's list.

Words work harder than actions.

Peter, you make a lot of claims. On most of your posts, you say "I do this and I do that." Above you were talking about all these things you do for the people of SwapShop, yet I don't see any of it. You make posts, which ideally would be a good start, but at this point, it is spammy. You need to take initiative and actually try to make your plans work.

Containers
08C
SS Discord
SS Security
Attracting New Players
Become a Member.
~16

These are all things you tried to start and then they just fall off the face of the earth.
Containers: Literally all you had to do was give Death the map and tell him "put it on this server#, it consistently gets 0 players, i think this could help boost the amount of consistent players you get, and if it doesn't work out for a week, we can change it back." Remember that terrible map you made to replace Orange Towers? That is the exact process I went through and the map got changed.

08C. You wanted get a group of peeps for competitive. You didn't do anything about it. It was very possible, but it wasn't organized. You didn't put your foot down and tell people when and who will be playing. Xerbat and Nuggz brought everyone to their own discord and actually played competitive with the same lot as 08C. He got that job done. It was definitely possible.

SS discord. I have no idea. It could work, but once again, no one did anything about it. But people talk in game anyhow so, so be it.

SS Security. Hades already covered this.

Attracting new players. I have no idea. It seems you don't either.

Become a member. This is the point of this post. Who is your audience? Is it people who come to the forum to apply for administration. That's nonsensical because they are coming to the forums to be admins. Is your audience the admins? Why would they demote themselves being that anything they do as a "member" they can already do as an admin? Is your audience the people who play on the servers? Yes. That is the answer. No question. You yourself want people from servers to come to the forums. That's where your words would be most effective, but of course: YOU DON'T PLAY ON SERVERS. You shouldn't be posting this on the forums because no one is there to hear you. They are all on the forums, yet you shot yourself in the foot and decided to not play on the servers.

If you want change to happen, you have to take initiative. Making posts is a good first step, but eventually the repetition just becomes spam.

~16

You're right. I'm just gonna keep shooting myself in the foot, aren't I? 'Cause I think other people are just gonna get it, work with me and do it. Guess what? I did suggest Death to consider the map. He declined. I was blind with 08C and the people were consistently confused and unwilling to comply. I was a terrible and unclear leader. I lacked the skill and experience to be a leader. You're right, SS Discord hasn't worked. Yet, I had asked Death about making it a reality. That, I backed away from because of my studies. I do intend on acting on it. But I suppose I'll find a way to shoot myself in the foot with that, right? Haven't I already? I should have launched the project when I had decided to work on it after the effort I put into it. I guess I'll try again.

I should be on the servers. I try, but I don't push. I should be pushing, should I? Pushing doesn't help I suppose. Because now you've brought the spam issue back. I guess everything I do is spam and I should just nope out of here! I'm just that stupid annoying kid, huh? That's just been my challenge and my life, Sixteen. It's what breaks my heart. Though, maybe it's just a growing process.

 You know what? "Be a Member" will only work if I do the only thing I know will work. I need to start looking for my opportunities, seizing them and learning from these simple mistakes. I'm not the smartest cookie in the world. I'm glad you're here to show me some of the faults I can correct through action.

But guess what, Sixteen? When you're talking about hypocrisy, you gotta look in the mirror. 'Cause I don't know what you're saying sometimes. It's just the same as when I don't know what I'm saying. This time, though...

[Ἀΐδης]

I am afraid that if this conversation/topic was to continue, it would start a fight. As such I am locking the topic.

Bottom line:
1. Ideas and suggestions are always welcome, provided as such they are presented in a constructive and meaningful manner.

2. Have plenty of information regarding it provided as well.
Ex. Forum prices for the forums, links, etc...


To post a suggestion please see here

Hades